Girl Money vs Boy Money
It’s still a man’s world, and it gets worse after 10 years.
I guess it’s still not a surprise, but every once in a while I am heartened by the women executives I know at the VP level who are doing well. It’s not impossible to get ahead. It just takes a little extra dedication.
I found this article through another blogger, but I can’t remember who now. But many thanks anyway for pointing it out.
I wonder what SingleMa’s got to say about this!
Debt Hater wrote:
I was just talking to a co-worker about that this morning. She said it’s because businesses expect women will leave to have children… but this study seems to show that even when women don’t do that they get paid less.
I think women should factor that into salary negotiations. Figure out what salary you need and would want (and taking into, of course, the industry, the location, etc.) and then add whatever it would take to catch up to men. As an African American woman, personally, I would add whatever the difference would be between me and white men… they can only say no, but you gotta ask!
Posted on 24-Apr-07 at 12:48 pm | Permalink
sfmoneymusings wrote:
I’m not surprised there’s still a large gap. It’s never going to be a level playing field. I t really comes down to speaking up and asking for more money. Like debt hater said, all you have to do is ask … such a simple thing to do but yet hard to even just work up the courage.
Btw, the home sale you mentioned in January is happening this week in the Bay Area or at least in SF definitely. The Macy’s flier calls it the “welcome home sale.” And the prices look good … $20 for a double boiler and pots and pans in the $10-20 range.
Posted on 25-Apr-07 at 12:40 am | Permalink
3 things about money wrote:
I’m not surprised by this finding, gender discrimination goes deep. One factor that sometimes contributes is that women don’t demand higher salaries — we’ve been trained to accept less and what seems like good money to a woman seems like chump change to a man.
When my graduate students are negotiating their first academic jobs we do a little exercise, I ask them to determine the top of the salary range they think is fair, and when they come in with the number, we rehearse the negotiation, but only after they add 30,000 to the top number they brought in.
In the rehearsal I ask them “What are your annual salary expectations?” and they have to say something like “95,000″ with a big smile. The men can do it easily and the women often burst into tears during the exercise, or turn red or apologize. Women will say it seems presumptious or rude to ask for “too much”, men have the attitude “hey, no harm in asking”. I rehearse them until they can do it with a relaxed attitude and my files are full of thank-you cards from students who received a much higher salary then they ever imagined.
I’m not suggesting that women are to blame for the salary gap, not even close, it is so clearly pervasive and entrenched sexism. But the effects of sexism in conditioning women to ask for less can be, to a certain degree, unlearned. Very interesting article, thanks for posting it.
Posted on 25-Apr-07 at 8:44 am | Permalink
Debt Hater wrote:
I think 3 Things is right on. We MUST ask for more money, but the boys still need to cough it up! The gender gap isn’t women’s fault. It started with discrimination and then took on a life of its own (institutional racism is a perfect example of that kind of thing).
I’m going to try that +$30,000 thing on my next evaluation when I ask for a raise… and I promise I won’t burst into tears!
Posted on 25-Apr-07 at 12:54 pm | Permalink
Alex wrote:
A good website to check out is: http://www.womendontask.com. Three Things and Debt Hater are both correct– women are taught early on that it’s wrong to ask for things for yourself. Oddly enough, one of the things Dr. Babcock discovered in her study was that many women were great at negotiating *for other people*, just not for themselves. Also, she discovered that even when women do ask, they have to go about it differently from how a man would do it (i.e.: if she’s “aggressive” she’s more likely than a man to not get what she asks for).
Posted on 25-Apr-07 at 2:29 pm | Permalink
Mapgirl’s Fiscal Challenge / Mapgirl, Inc. Redux wrote:
[…] The Girl Money v Boy Money post has generated some very interesting discussion. […]
Posted on 25-Apr-07 at 4:18 pm | Permalink
3 things about money wrote:
I have to add more about unlearning girl negotiation styles just in case anybody is in this position.
This works at hire for professionals but it also works on a different scale for other kinds of jobs. As someone who has hired a lot of people, I can tell you that rule #1 is that we hate the salary negotiation as much as you do.
So let’s say what you want is 95K, top of the range and you add 30K and end up asking for 125K. Several things can happen.
1: They really want you and counteroffer at 15K less. You can either say okay and be happy at your fabulous new salary or you can counteroffer again — if it starts getting into back and forth, they may start thinking you are “difficult” so figure out in advance how much of a stance you are going to take (remembering that you would have been thrilled with 95K).
2: They are absolutely shocked and regretful and say they can’t possibly meet your expectations. Tell them you really want the job (if you do) and get them to say a number. They will almost never drop more than 20K. You’re still happy.
3: They don’t really want you and indicate that your salary demands are “unrealistic”. If you want the job, counteroffer yourself, never dropping below 95K. Start with 115K, being willing to take the cut because you are just so darn excited about the job. Even if you plummet to 100K, they feel like they have been hardcore and responsible managers and you still win. If they act like demeaning assholes you don’t want to work there.
4: If they say they can get a grad student for 45K smile sweetly and say that it was great meeting them and you hope it works out or if you don’t care about your relationship with them say “ah yes, you get what you pay for I guess”
5. If they look relieved and say well, that shouldn’t be a problem, you blew it. You could have gotten a lot more.
6. Sometimes people are absolutely transparent and honest and say they just can’t because of the budget or whatever, the job was listed in the 80K range and they were only authorized to go up to 95K, use the fact that they feel bad about talking about you going down 30K and leverage extra stuff in exchange - office with a window, research assistant, moving expenses, working at home on Fridays, something? Make them give you something. You still get a salary at the top of your range plus.
Generally, if they are talking to you about salary, they want you (maybe you are on the short list), because they don’t want negotiation pain if it isn’t serious. In academic fields, I tell people to resist all attempts at salary negotiation until they offer you the job. Then negotiate. They become invested. It is embarassing when an appointment falls through. They’ll cave.
ALWAYS ask for more and they will ALWAYS offer you less, so make sure less is way more than you ever dreamed of.
You’re worth it. Practice with a real person, preferably a male friend, who will kindly make arrogant snorting noises or raise an eyebrow or say with some contempt “But,dear, you just defended a year ago” or whatever it is that yanks your chain. Practice enough so that you get to the place where you are confident, smooth, calm, and relaxed about it. That’s how the boys do the money negotiation, you can too.
Posted on 25-Apr-07 at 6:20 pm | Permalink
Debt Hater wrote:
#5 happened to me on my current job… the second the manager said, “yeah, no problem,” I knew I screwed up… but I also knew that somewhere deep inside I was “afraid” to ask for any more. Isn’t that sick! It was a subsconscious fear, I just felt uneasy and rationalized that it meant I was asking for a fair salary. WRONG!
Posted on 26-Apr-07 at 3:23 pm | Permalink